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We Pay People to Listen but it Doesn't Mean They Hear Us: Trauma Survivor Questions the Medical Model

"What is most striking about how therapies are developed and implemented in PTSD-land today is how rarely one actually hears what patients think about it at all" wrote David J. Morris in The Evil Hours: A Biography of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder



"If they are mentioned at all, they're spoken of as 'subjects' or 'female sexual assault victims' or, most often, merely as numbers, as n=246" he wrote.



I noticed this same clinical distance when I went to the trauma conference in Boston last year where there was not even one self-identified trauma survivor speaker, vendor, researcher or even a survivor. I'm sure some of the people present were survivors too, but the survivor perspective was not shared at all.



It was true too in the Bessel van der Kolk's book - The Body Keeps Score. He's a brilliant man and I've followed his work the way some follow rock bands. While his book was filled with fascinating research and information it was also totally off-putting because the only trauma survivors quoted were quoted as patients - not just people.



It's an important distinction.



Trauma survivors, even those who go to therapy, spend far more time out of a therapist chair or office. Isn't how we think, feel and cope with trauma symptoms in our real lives at least as important if not more important than what we share in therapy? That hour doesn't tell even close to the whole story of actual lives lived. It's not where we love, parent, work or pay bills. It's not where we navigate our trauma symptoms in real time.



I can't wait until survivor voices are considered essential at a trauma conference. Where is the lived experience of survivors as real-life people when not in pain or in crisis? Would you want to learn about good health from doctors who only see sick people or about strong teeth from people who only treat gum disease? It's a valuable perspective but it's just one. How did it become the mouthpiece for the survivor's experience?



Where are the survivors who are doing well in life, or who have ups and downs, who find approaches outside of therapy helpful? Where are the self-identified survivors who are also doctors, writers, activists, lawyers and parents sharing what has and hasn't worked?



These are the voices I most want to hear.



I hope some day there is a think tank between trauma survivor treatment providers and the ones considered "experts" and those with a trauma-related experience or diagnosis.



Could we have conversations, as peers and equals, at a table and not only with the power dynamic of being in need or crisis and in therapy?



Don't get me wrong. Talk therapy can have great value for many, for a short time or a long time. But it's a service and not a conversation. It's a business and a helping profession too but it's not possible for it to be a dialogue, a back and forth or a real relationship.



Wouldn't therapists like to know the parts of therapy that are less than optimal? It's not like someone paying $100 an hour wants to share with a therapist in their premium time what's a total miss or isn't all that great. Not usually.



I'd love for the therapeutic community to ask survivors questions at these conferences such as:



What do you want and need that you aren't getting?

What would be helpful support?

What parts of current treatment models are ineffective or frustrating or not working?

What parts of life are most troubling, most tricky with a history or neglect and abuse?



Remember all the prevailing wisdom that said one had to "feel it to heal it' and many of us were re-traumatized? I didn't get a talk therapy recall notice or a refund. Did you?



Pardon me for being suspicious.



Trauma impacts the body. Oh, that's news?



And how many of us on our own found yoga or body work before the professional trauma community was in favor of that just because we knew and felt it worked? Many of us were told that could be dangerous or too difficult or we'd need a special kind of trauma-sensitive only version for us because we're so fragile. I'm not saying trauma-sensitivity isn't good (in yoga or elsewhere) but sometimes it does not add extra safety. Sometimes it makes people feel more damaged. And for me, the most beautiful trauma-sensitive practitioners are the ones who share their survivor status and use "we" language and not - you patient. Me healer.



How many of us said, "Actually, this or that medication doesn't work" before the professional trauma community was listening? How many said, like I did, "This causes weight gain" and was told to eat more fruit and then later, "That causes weight gain." Or how many asked where are the support groups or guidance for going off medications or weaning? I was told "those" internet sites are not good but given no other alternative.



Wouldn't more dialogues like the kind that happen some on Gift from Within be good for the field? Those with trauma symptoms and those treating the symptoms should be on the same team, right? I'm not sure why that is the exception rather than rule.



It's so startling to me because so many of the people giving talks at last year's trauma conference shared how ineffective most treatments are, how some, like talk therapy, have made people feel worse and how terrible so many people are doing.



There was not one table of vendors with people with PTSD talking or sharing about what it's like to live with or manage trauma or traumatic stress. I mean not once in a four day conference. Might this be part of the problem?



Again, I'm sure there were many survivors present and that many of the therapists and scientists are survivors. But they didn't self-identify and spoke of patients in the same way they spoke of the rats and mice and monkeys studied - as subjects.



Does that mean they have shame? It's unprofessional or damaging to a career to be a survivor and a therapist (though we all know that's not exactly uncommon).



To me, who has admired experts and their work for more than two decades I was shocked and disappointed. And honestly, I felt insulted too.



There were speakers at the trauma conference who created fictional composites of patients with made up names (in honor of their own children at times) to make points. I kept thinking, "There's not one real survivor who can speak for him or herself? Are you kidding me?"



There would be art work of patients or even writing, but anonymous. And even in video patients were shown - I assume (and hope) with their permission. Why not have them present to speak for themselves? Were they even asked.



And yet, to raise criticisms as a trauma survivor, of the medical model isn't always met with warmth. To say, "I have PTSd" and "I have problems with the medical model" means it's easy to be dismissed as a crazy person with issues.



Or, people dismiss concerns as just "crazy."



To date, I have the only negative review of The Body Keeps Score on Amazon. I don't even have only

negative things to say because it's an important work. What I said is the book is alienating to me as a reader who is a trauma survivor. Half the people attacked my negative review and another half supported it. I don't care if people disagree with me but to be dismissed because I have a history of trauma was troubling.



Wouldn't the fact that I have tried many of the treatments for trauma, as a trauma survivor, make me more and not less able to review the book? I was speaking from my own perspective only and even that was questioned - what will the trauma history. I don't see my being a trauma survivor as making me unable to have critical or affirming thoughts about research or treatment approaches. I was giving an opinion review. It doesn't have to be agreed with but opinions and feelings aren't up for debate.



If there were more collaboration collaboration between trauma survivors and trauma experts (I personally do consider trauma survivors experts) - wouldn't this be good for all who want more effective trauma treatments?



Morris touches on this whole topic in his book and how with PTSD there really are no consumer-rating systems or surveys of what therapies do/don't work by the people getting them.



Imagine if companies like Apple never had to hear the responses or complaints, what people do and don't like about their product? Many of us are mental health consumers but our voices have little sway and representation in the places where therapies are being developed and explored and discussed.



In the Body Keeps Score, van der Kolk wrote about this rule he "for my students: If you do something to a patient that you would not do to your friends or children, consider whether you are unwittingly replicating a trauma from the patient's past."



I'd have to say, speaking for patients and trauma survivors as is so often done in the book and at the trauma conference - to me - does not honor that rule. Friends and family members generally don't take well to being spoken for when they can speak for themselves but this happens all of the time in the medical model that treats trauma primarily as a psych issue.



On a brighter note, the reason I didn't feel my money was wasted at the Trauma Conference is that it is where I learned abou the ACE test and study. It was referred to offhand as in - you should all know about this if you don't - there's a calculator even online or something to that effect.



Now I do and it's empowering.



There are places where openness, information and resource sharing are valued. There are places where the sharing of thoughts, ideas and practices which actually help people in real life living with traumatic stress and high ACE score issues is prized.



This site is a needed change because it allows dialogue between people. The experiences of living with, working with, loving and being people with developmental trauma, neglect and household dysfunction is shared and valued.



I hope, in the future, the valuable wisdom and experiences of trauma survivors can be shared openly and where treatment providers hear from trauma survivors as peers, colleagues and teachers, not only as patients.



I just can't believe that experts we pay so much don't want to listen to what we have to say when we aren't their patients. We can pay them to listen but that doesn't mean we will be heard. Our voices are dismissed rather than invited or included. This was actually shocking and disheartening to me. It must change if we are to find, create and benefit from more effective and affordable treatments of trauma symptoms.



Christine Cissy White

www.healwritenow.com

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Comments (13)

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Fiona,
I had a chance to check out both of the links you shared. I'm so glad I did. The conferences I've been to have a clear us/them divide with the therapists speaking for the "patients" as though that's actually possible. I think so many therapists view these nice conversations as in and of themselves - healing or therapeutic - that they never ask, "Are you getting what you want, need, came for and are paying for"
Thank you for sharing your perspective and the links to resources. They are hopeful. 
Cissy
Tina,
Here it is:http://twloha.com/blog/being-real-about-trauma-symptoms/
It was shared here a while back and titled Why Survivors Need Each Other.
Thanks for asking. Cis
Hi cissy can you send me the link to your story, I cannot find it. Thanks

 

Thank you!......

     Cissy, the Anna Institute website has a pdf (adobe) copy of "In Their Own Words: 200 Maine Survivors and Professionals they Trust, Tell what hurts and What Helps". I don't have the website address at the moment, and the document may be listed [by its acronym] as "ITOW", but I've accessed a copy there, before.  ....-Bob

 

Hi All......

     Cissy, the Anna Institute website has a pdf (adobe) copy of "In Their Own Words: 200 Maine Survivors and Professionals they Trust, Tell what hurts and What Helps". I don't have the website address at the moment, and the document may be listed [by its acronym] as "ITOW", but I've accessed a copy there, before.  ....-Bob

Hi Cissy, thanks for your post. I'm a trauma survivor, working in the mental health and addictions sector in New Zealand, for the last few years particularly focussed on adult education. We have a fairly strong consumer movement down here and many conferences would insist on having people with lived experience present and participating in the conversations and events, as a matter of routine courtesy.  However, like the experience you describe, I've also been to conferences where we are talked about, and not ever asked for our take on things or our opinion. 

 

In terms of evaluating interventions that work and that don't, I'm a big fan of the Client Directed Outcome Indicators (CDOI) approach to talk therapies.  I find these simple measures (of my outcomes, and my relationship with the practitioner) are fully congruent with a recovery approach and accommodating of trauma perspectives. If a practitioner can get over themselves enough to ask for feedback on their performance, this approach using these tools can make some surprising differences to how therapy progresses, how fast and how effectively.  I've spent way too much time and money in the past with therapists who were not in the least bit effective in terms of what I came to them about, but who were more than happy to take my money and an hour of my life, week after week, because we seemed to enjoy the conversations and a few insights seemed to be occurring.  I believe strongly this is actually an irresponsible approach to talk therapies and would like to see more self reflection from practitioners. I've put links at the end of this post in case anyone would like to check out the measures and the CDOI approach further.

 

https://heartandsoulofchange.com/

http://www.scottdmiller.com/#

Tina,
I don't read your post and think poor you. I'm glad you share your personal and professional experiences combined. Ther is still a lot of shame, misunderstanding and distancing from the reality and complexity of developmental trauma and the long term impact.
A piece I had posted here was published last week on To Write Love on Her Arms and in the comments, private emails and on Facebook & Twitter so many said, "me too," or "mirror" or "I thought I was alone" or thanked me for bringing up neglect ans considering it harmful or who didn't have PTSD from high ACES but adult things and said, 'needed to be reminded i'm not the only one kind of stuff.'
It's easy and wonderful here, where there's some shared lingo and understanding, to forget many people don't know a single other person in their life or world openly dealing, questioning, healing or challenging some family systems or adversity. We don't share all the same experiences, coping tools, symptoms and approaches to healing but I know I appreciate hearing the voices of people speaking for themselves and others who are hearing me speak for myself.
That's still fairly radical for many.
And still can be scary and vulnerable too.
So thank you too!!!!
Cissy
Just wanna say and have lots to say for Kathy's post neurofeedback is AWESOME at least for me! I think it could be great for others with DT too!!!

I think I may get a chance to live human before I die (I was having nightmares in addition to the one I always have had of mean things trying to kill me ... that I would get to my death bed having never lived... I have lived of course, I have climbed the highest sea cliffs in the world on Molokai with the homeless shamans. I have a lot more to do but I don't think that I will die having not truly lived anymore!

I tell my story not cause I want "poor me". It has really hurt and haunted me a lot in my life but I want others to know they aren't alone. I want them to know there is someone else who knows it too, feels it too and is passionately trying to make life more compassionate for kids. Now I know we all know bad stuff happens to kids because ACEs are common ... But because grew up shamed, I believe it is hard to be out there and open ... And it is adult shaming by other adults or maybe just by me who could not let go of belief that  I was just shame that seems to provoke fear in others. This is my reality ... I want others w/similar lived childhood experience to be able to take the 'path less chosen' and to walk the 'Hero's Journey'.

Thank you both Cissy and you Robert (you are a hero to me), and to all ACErs and to Jane and ACEsconnection!

T
Last edited by Former Member
Originally Posted by Christine Cissy White:

       
Originally Posted by Tina Marie Hahn, MD:
Tina, Thank you for your earlier post too. And for the link. I follow one of those site writers on her own page and so it was great to be linked to the site itself. Great to see the advocacy and work. I appreciate the link. Cissy


       


Hi Cissy

I thought I was a little too negative. I do believe what I do but wanted time to say the same w/nuance. I don't want others to be reacted by my bluntness. However, I as a doc and who has had patients sent to psych and being a psyche pt. myself, I know how much hurt non- trauma informed psyche can cause but I could take my time to say the same thing w/less hurt to others and wanting to eliminate ACEs I don't want to be an adult trauma producer .... But I do want people to think and not just use a book called DSM-5.   So I will put a thoughtful response when I get a chance. I really LOVE your posts because they are awesome and they help us think about what affects us and think 'how can we make this better?' Thxs T

Oh and PS I type many responses on my iPhone so it is really hard to see what I wrote and apple correct is annoying. l check it later and so I edit a lot. Thank you T
Last edited by Former Member
Robert,
Thank you for that comprehensive information. I've thought of going to the conference organizers even to get a vendor table so there's some visibility just to the other survivors at the conference as well as self-help things that have helped, worked can be instead of or with more traditional treatments for when times aren't quite as post-traumatically stressed or for people who don't like, need or can't afford the traditional methods.
Do you have a link to the paper  you collaborated on - "In Their Own Words" because i'd love to see that if possible.
I also think that there are plenty of survivors out of the traditional mental health setting who have tips, techniques and strategies that could inform the more traditional practice (and practitioners) and those voices and experiences are not being captured anywhere that be referenced and to serve as a resource for others.
Thanks for all you have shared and the pathways you've helped create to make changes, in roads and get/share info. and education. 
Cissy

A few years ago, the SAMHSA agency was about to hold a conference, without "seats at the table" for "Consumers/Survivors/Persons With Lived Experience", and an acquaintance of mine, approached some members of Congress...who wrote a letter to DHHS Secretary Sibelius, requesting seats at the table for Persons with lived experience. (Perhaps it was the Congressional Recovery Caucus members), ...because seats at the table were made available. Perhaps checking out the website or facebook page of Witness Justice, will offer some hope. I have another friend who "consults" to Dartmouth Psychiatric Research, and does presentations to medical students about his experiences. Boston University publishes a journal of Psychiatric Rehabilitation, which has published a number of his articles. I attended a VA conference on PTSD: Current status and issues of treatments that work, and the evaluation of those treatments--although I did not self identify as a "Person of lived experience", but I did receive 4 NASW CEU's for attending and participating. I attended our state Attorney General's Trauma Informed Services training and got 4 more NASW CEU's. Fifteen years ago I submitted both written and oral testimony to the Vermont Legislative Trauma Commission, as did many other "Persons with Lived Experience"-and who self-identified as such. If we "Persons with Lived Experience" have access to the "Evidence Base" of effective treatments, like members of the [Ontario Canada] Evidence Exchange Network (EENet Connect website), we will [theoretically] be better able to make "Informed Consent" decisions about treatment that will hopefully work for us-depending on where it is made available. The National Health Planning and Resources Development Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-641) required "Consumer Majorities" on all Certificate of Need, Project Review, Health Systems Agency boards of directors, and sub-area councils. The law defined "Consumer" as one who did not earn more than 10% of their income from a health related source, was not married to a "Provider", and was not an "Indirect Provider" like a dental Hygienist or EMT/Paramedic. We had "Technical Assistance Centers" which taught such information as how to do a Readability Analysis of Your Health Systems Agency newsletter. The by-laws of our state Health Systems Agency allowed any state resident over 18 years of age to be a voting member. Since Providers were already "organized" and had their own "Esoteric language" I found Consumer oriented materials from the Consumer Coalition for Health, and elsewhere, written in language that did not exceed the readability level of most of the low income and elderly consumers I was to advocate for and help get "organized". 200 Persons with Lived Experience", in Maine, collaborated with "Professionals they Trust", to Publish: "In Their Own Words: 200 Maine citizens, and providers they trust, tell What Helps and what hurts [for trauma services]". 

     We at ACEsConnection have access to probably the most up-to-date and comprehensive "Evidence Base" as far as effective treatments, etc., and many open and welcoming communities across the nation. That doesn't mean it isn't scary to come out in public, and risk stigma, and non-attachment feelings from being shunned, or not having ever had primary caretakers during childhood who made loving eye contact with us.....

 

Originally Posted by Tina Marie Hahn, MD:

Tina, Thank you for your earlier post too. And for the link. I follow one of those site writers on her own page and so it was great to be linked to the site itself. Great to see the advocacy and work. I appreciate the link. Cissy

 

A few years ago, the SAMHSA agency was about to hold a conference, without "seats at the table" for "Consumers/Survivors/Persons With Lived Experience", and an acquaintance of mine, approached some members of Congress...who wrote a letter to DHHS Secretary Sibelius, requesting seats at the table for Persons with lived experience. (Perhaps it was the Congressional Recovery Caucus members), ...because seats at the table were made available. Perhaps checking out the website or facebook page of Witness Justice, will offer some hope. I have another friend who "consults" to Dartmouth Psychiatric Research, and does presentations to medical students about his experiences. Boston University publishes a journal of Psychiatric Rehabilitation, which has published a number of his articles. I attended a VA conference on PTSD: Current status and issues of treatments that work, and the evaluation of those treatments--although I did not self identify as a "Person of lived experience", but I did receive 4 NASW CEU's for attending and participating. I attended our state Attorney General's Trauma Informed Services training and got 4 more NASW CEU's. Fifteen years ago I submitted both written and oral testimony to the Vermont Legislative Trauma Commission, as did many other "Persons with Lived Experience"-and who self-identified as such. If we "Persons with Lived Experience" have access to the "Evidence Base" of effective treatments, like members of the [Ontario Canada] Evidence Exchange Network (EENet Connect website), we will [theoretically] be better able to make "Informed Consent" decisions about treatment that will hopefully work for us-depending on where it is made available. The National Health Planning and Resources Development Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-641) required "Consumer Majorities" on all Certificate of Need, Project Review, Health Systems Agency boards of directors, and sub-area councils. The law defined "Consumer" as one who did not earn more than 10% of their income from a health related source, was not married to a "Provider", and was not an "Indirect Provider" like a dental Hygienist or EMT/Paramedic. We had "Technical Assistance Centers" which taught such information as how to do a Readability Analysis of Your Health Systems Agency newsletter. The by-laws of our state Health Systems Agency allowed any state resident over 18 years of age to be a voting member. Since Providers were already "organized" and had their own "Esoteric language" I found Consumer oriented materials from the Consumer Coalition for Health, and elsewhere, written in language that did not exceed the readability level of most of the low income and elderly consumers I was to advocate for and help get "organized". 200 Persons with Lived Experience", in Maine, collaborated with "Professionals they Trust", to Publish: "In Their Own Words: 200 Maine citizens, and providers they trust, tell What Helps and what hurts [for trauma services]". 

     We at ACEsConnection have access to probably the most up-to-date and comprehensive "Evidence Base" as far as effective treatments, etc., and many open and welcoming communities across the nation. That doesn't mean it isn't scary to come out in public, and risk stigma, and non-attachment feelings from being shunned, or not having ever had primary caretakers during childhood who made loving eye contact with us.....

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